Networking - Nina Johal.jpg

We've all heard that networking can increase your chances of landing a job.
Applying for a job is a 1:1 activity.
When you network, one connection can lead to many connections.

A lot of jobs are not visible on the open market.
Networking can give you visibility to these opportunities.

Nina Johal, joins us to explain some of the finer details of how networking can help you, and how you can help others through networking.

Nina Johal

Senior Director, Global Executive Talent Acquisition, Microsoft

Nina leads the Global Executive Talent Acquisition function at Microsoft and manages a team of 40 professionals spread across the globe.  With Microsoft since 1993, she has held various roles in both the staffing and HR generalist functions and has worked in the United States, Canada, India and Singapore.

In her current role, she is responsible for overseeing all leadership recruiting (top 1% of the company), external executive succession planning and Board of Director placements.  As part of the Global Talent Acquisition Leadership Team, Nina is involved in shaping the future direction of talent acquisition for the company.

Born in Canada and obtaining her Bachelor of Education degree from the University of British Columbia, Nina now resides in Bellevue, Washington with her husband and son.  Previously, she has been an active member of SHRM & an active participant in HRCI.  In her spare time, she enjoys travelling, working out, spending time with family, fine wines and reading.

Contact Nina



Danna Redmond: 00:00:00 Welcome Nina thank you. Great to be on the show with you. I'm so excited to have you with us and talking about this very important topic about networking. You know we hear so frequently that networking is important during a job search. Why do you think that is.

Nina Johal: 00:00:16 That's such a great question. What I would say is I think that networking can increase your chances meaning increasing your odds of landing a job. And when I think about the concept of networking and contrast that as an example to the act of applying for a job. For me applying for a job is much more of a one to one transaction. But when you network with just one person that one connection can turn into multiple connections. And one of the things I like to talk to people about is the actual definition of a network and when you look it up in the dictionary some of the definitions are it's an arrangement of introspecting horizontal and vertical lines. It's like a combination of filaments or passages and it's a group or system of interconnected people or things. So when I think about the possibility of making a connection with one person and then that person connecting you to another it almost becomes a ripple effect because I think there's the law of odds in terms of expanding your opportunities of landing a job or just making connections with a variety of people. The other thing I'll say is when I think about the importance of networking there's a lot of jobs just aren't easily visible to you as an individual in the open market. Right and there's lots of times when a certain job isn't even open yet or it doesn't even exist. But you've had an interaction or an opportunity to network with someone and you plant the seed in their brain in terms of what you might have to offer and even that you're just looking for your next role. And oftentimes that lands you into a real opportunity in the future. I've actually experienced that myself in my career. So it's something I love to chat with people about.

Danna Redmond: 00:01:59 I'd love to hear that how does that. How did networking impact your own career.

Nina Johal: 00:02:03 Yeah you know I will try to keep the story as concise that possible but when I when I first moved from Canada to the U.S. and I was working in the H.R. space I think one of the challenges when you move from one country to another is you're in a different environment in terms of even employment law. And so I actually joined the local chapter of SHRM in the Bellevue area and one of my reasons for doing that was to build up my own skill and knowledge of the U.S. employment market. And what I ended up doing and this is this could be a very long story as I said but I ended up volunteering to be a member of the board and I'll talk a little bit about this later too I think doing things like that and making yourself a little bit more visible in some of these networking scenarios gives you an opportunity to get a lot of exposure and people will naturally reach out to you. So in this particular scenario I had studied to get my certification in SHRM so my SPHR at that point in time. It just so happened that I got my designation. I was actually working in the banking industry in the H.R. function. And unfortunately we were going through a downsizing and I was at the point where we were closing out all of our local offices and I had begun to do a job search. Still employed but doing a job search. One of the folks that I met again through networking was teaching a class at the University of Washington and he asked me to come to the first class and just basically talk to the students in terms of how I felt the designation the certification the speech are would help me in my job search and in honesty my first reaction was gosh the University of Washington it really is.

Nina Johal: 00:03:48 And on my way home I had a small infant at the time and he was like Nina at the Bothell campus that's you know on your way home. Give me 10 minutes of your time. So I said Certainly. So I attended the first 15 to 20 minutes of the class and one of the things I mentioned was that I was in a job search and that I felt like this designation would help me went on and it gave them a little bit of the path that I had been on to get the certification. And then you know went on my merry way home. And then the next day my networking contact called me and said there was a woman in the part of the student body who was currently at Nintendo and somebody from Microsoft had approached her wondering basically cold calling her and asking her if she was interested in an opportunity at Microsoft and H.R. she was at that time but I had planted that little scene in her head and so she had contacted Rick my networking colleague and asked if he would be comfortable reaching out to me to ask me if I was interested. So long story short that's how I ended up at Microsoft. So I love to tell that story because it could very easily have turned out to be a different scenario where I didn't attend I hadn't networked with them etc. etc..

Danna Redmond: 00:05:01 Right. I mean that's so interesting right where it was. Yeah. The contact of your contacts it wasn't even that you know your contact knew about it. So that gives you that network effect as you were talking about actually that connectedness that and I love it that's a personnel you have a personal vested in networking as is. You've seen it work very well for your career.

Nina Johal: 00:05:21 Yeah. The other thing I'll just mention too is that it's worked for me externally and that has also worked for me internally and you know what I'll share with you on that topic is I had an interest in doing international work at some point in my career and so working locally at the corporate office here in Redmond was great. I was having a fantastic time but I also as I said wanted to do something in the international space and so part of my internal networking strategy was to make sure that as I spoke to other senior H.R. leaders who were in positions of making some decisions in terms of career movement that I sort of dropped that little seed into their brain too. And in actuality and I give people this advice to is even if it's not the right timing for you just basically saying that at some point I'd love to do something internationally that can gain a life of its own. And in in the example again personal story is I wasn't ready at that point in time but you know six months later one of the church leaders who I'd mentioned that too called me up and asked me mean I have a six month assignment in Singapore would you be interested. So I think planting those seeds throughout all these networking conversations can lead to many things and even things that you would have never thought would come to fruition.

Danna Redmond: 00:06:39 That's incredible. I love that idea of planting the seeds right so you sort of plant that and then you're not sure you know when that's going to pop up and take a life of its own but it can at some future point for you. So I love that. So let's talk a little bit about the basics of networking. So how does someone get started with networking.

Nina Johal: 00:06:59 Yeah you know I think for me and again just speaking from personal experiences you have to have confidence in yourself and you have to know your own strengths. And I think sometimes that can be difficult especially if you're in job search mode and you know maybe you've had some sort of setback that impacted your self-esteem. I think we've all been there at some point in our careers. And so do whatever you need to do to pump yourself up. Maybe it's self-talk or maybe it's talking to a trusted advisor or just getting your level of confidence that I think is super important. The other thing that I would say is take the pressure off yourself and think about it as not searching for something that you need but make it all about how you can help someone else. After all you know a lot of people and you can be a connector yourself. You can offer advice and you can share your perspective and I think taking a little bit of the pressure off yourself to say gosh I need to reach out. I need help but just turn that around and say How can I help others. And then the other thing I would say is networking is about building relationships and those relationships need to be founded on trust which means that you have to be genuine and authentic.

Nina Johal: 00:08:11 And so again I think in my mind it's a little bit about just showing up as yourself and just being who you are and just making those natural connections. The other thing I'll say is I mean that's all well well and good sort of on the psychological standpoint. But you really have to make a concrete plan and then execute on it. And what I mean there is really think about what are your goals for networking. Maybe it is that you're in job search mode or maybe you are seeking out some sort of mentoring relationship. There could be a variety of reasons but you could use that filter to determine what networking events you might want to target first and then I would say when you make your list of advance take into consideration how comfortable you are or not in that type of environment naturally if networking comes to you naturally then you can spread your net wider and you can move more quickly. Sort of going into so while you're at the event I would say look for smaller groups of people that you can join. I typically look for a pod of three. It just makes it easier to join the conversation. And then I would say don't be afraid to join the group introduce yourself because once you introduce yourself then others will follow suit.

Danna Redmond: 00:09:24 I love that. So when you talk about events like what kind of events would this be. Do you have some examples that people could think about.

Nina Johal: 00:09:33 That I think it really really depends. And so I'm going to go back to if you feel like you're a natural networker. I think almost going into any of that you're going to feel comfortable and you're going to have success in terms of making connections. I think if you're a little bit more on the introverted side or shy or you haven't done it before then my advice would be pick a networking event where you're going to feel the most comfortable so it could be an event where there's a high probability you'll know at least a couple of people. It could be an alumni. The other thing I would suggest if you're more on the shy side is pick a networking event that has a topic that you have a lot of passion about. It could be a social gathering it could be a wine club it could be a reading club it could be a car club. I mean you pick it whatever you feel more more comfortable because of the topic of conversation is something that you have a passion about. You're going to be you're going to feel much more comfortable initiating a conversation with someone who's actually networking as well.

Danna Redmond: 00:10:40 Right. Right. I love that idea of it being you know a car show or you know a wine club. Are there any other sort of surprising places that you think people can network that maybe they're not thinking about as a networking event.

Nina Johal: 00:10:54 It's almost anywhere. I mean literally it could be a coffee shop it could be an airplane is one where people tend to network with the person next to them. It could be a sporting event. I mean I've I've just had and I will say to I am not an extrovert. I am more of an introvert but I feel like when you're in a social gathering or in a place where people are just naturally gathering a restaurant a coffee shop or even a bar. It's very easy to turn to the person next to you and just say hello and a conversation will generate you know I'll give you another funny example of networking. I was actually and this was a couple of weeks ago. It was my boss 50th birthday and we were trying to track down some very special type of I think it was whiskey not a whiskey connoisseur but it was something very very rare type of whiskey and a couple of us were trying to figure out where could we buy it. And so I just happened to be sitting at the bar waiting for my husband and there was a young man sitting next to me. And it dawned on me that he was a liquor distributor and it didn't click for me first and we started talking about kids and you know he has little ones and you know all the idea. And finally it occurred to me I should ask what more I can get this whiskey and. We had a great conversation he gave me his contact information and it is just another example of you can network anywhere you can network for any reason. And in this case it was it was a great thing for me he probably didn't get much out of it besides the conversation. But you know I was able to make a key when in terms of getting the right whiskey I love it. Yeah. To answer your question honestly you can network anywhere.

Danna Redmond: 00:12:32 And I love your example right where you are now where it Gheen you're thinking about all of those connections as networking and it's not just about you know your next job but it really is helping you helping to solve a problem or the flipside is you know you may have had some information in that instance that somebody needed right so goes back to that helping others. And you know seeking help from that network. It's kind of a different twist on it than I like it will come back to you.

Nina Johal: 00:12:58 My my other example is I was on a plane a couple of weeks ago coming back from Phoenix and I just had my laptop up and I was working in for like 99 percent of the flight. And literally 10 minutes before we landed I finally struck up a conversation there was a really nice lady sitting beside me and she told me her story of she was a consultant and in the security business like computer security and that great conversation with her I just could tell she was highly intelligent. She was traveling a lot. Her husband happened to work at Microsoft. And so I immediately made the connection with her and said well gosh you know you should have your husband send me your resume. And so now I'm in the process of trying to figure out if there's a good match for her. But there's another example of you know for her networking anywhere may lead her to a job right.

Danna Redmond: 00:13:49 Right. I love that and I love you being sort of open to that right even suggesting not knowing what role you have. It is sort of easy access within the company that you might have and you've been unwilling to share that out. So that goes back to that helping others right. Yeah yeah. I like that a lot. You know so we hear a lot about linked in and sort of networking through linked in. What role the U.S. linked in can and should play in somebody's networking plan.

Nina Johal: 00:14:19 Well we are definitely affiliated with LinkedIn now. We acquired them a little while ago. It's true it's true. I'm heading down length in next week to meet with some of my colleagues down there. You know I think Linked-In is a wonderful wonderful tool and it's one of those things where when I when I gave the dictionary definition of networking I really see it as the web and the Web can expand really really quickly and I think LinkedIn is an enabler of that. And so I mean I guess the cautionary thing is you could very easily get yourself overwhelmed with people that are connecting with you and people that you are connecting with. And so I think you have to be slightly selective in terms of who you want to connect with how you want to connect with them. And in this example. And the reason for connecting I love to give my LinkedIn information out. I think it's a great way especially when you are actively networking with someone face to face you know in a room or at a conference. For me the easiest thing to say is let's let's get connected on LinkedIn because I'm lengthening there. You can pursue that relationship to the depth that you feel is necessary or you can help that person they can help you. So I'm a big fan of it and I think it's an enabler in terms of the networking scenarios that we're all involved in.

Danna Redmond: 00:15:42 Right. And I know you know I think one of the key pieces for it is you can see people's work history or know where they are and you know which is super helpful when you're looking for something specific. I mean I will say that career cue really came about because I had was looking at maybe going to do some consulting work and Stacy who is my co-host on the show I saw she had worked for particular consulting company that I was interested in a local company. And so that's was my first outreach to our was hey I see that you work for this company I want to chat about it. And then we met for a few coffees and a few coffees more and hence then the career. Is Born. But really you know our initial outreach to her was about a particular company that she had worked for previously. And then we took clearly a whole different path that we launched that create together so that that's a great story.

Nina Johal: 00:16:32 And it just it's sparking my mind to say I think it's a great tool in terms of benchmarking too. So for myself if I want to gain a little bit more knowledge about how another company or person is approaching executive recruiting as an example. LinkedIn is a great tool to figure out who are those other people. You know that might be out there facing a similar challenge. And then you know connecting with them and having that dialogue.

Danna Redmond: 00:16:57 Yes. Great. Great. Well let's take a quick break and then when we come back I want to talk about how networking can play a role just in your career development outside of finding a new job. Welcome back. We're talking with Nina Johal all about networking. So Nina I'd love to talk a little bit more about what role networking can play in somebody's career development really just outside of when they want to find a new job. Is there a role for networking in crew development.

Nina Johal: 00:17:41 Absolutely. And again I'm trying to think of a personal story that I can relate to this and nothing is popping to mind at the moment. So you know what I will say is I think that network can lead to many different opportunities and the one that pops into my head is you could be at a networking event and find an opportunity to either become a mentor or be mentored by someone in a specific area or need that you might have. And so I think there are opportunities in terms of me developing my own career as a network with someone I enter into a mentoring relationship with them or as I said it could be vice versa where I feel like there's an opportunity for me to mentor someone or coach someone. And when you mentor someone I think it's there's a two way benefit to that. You learn and they learn. So that's something that immediately comes to mind in terms of career development. The other thing I would say is it could lead to volunteer opportunities too. So a volunteer opportunity isn't necessarily finding a new job but when you take on a volunteer opportunity obviously your not only contributing to whatever that organization is but you're also learning and developing your own skills.

Danna Redmond: 00:18:56 That's interesting to think about right that looking out for volunteer opportunities or having those offered to you through your network really can be beneficial you can grow your skills or get additional exposure and that maybe you wouldn't have had before without you know having that network offer you that opportunity.

Nina Johal: 00:19:14 Yeah and I think when you say exposure I would interpret that to mean visibility as well so if are volunteering in an organization you become a very visible member of that community and then just by being a visible member of a community I think there's many more opportunities for you to make connections with people and again those connections could lead to all sorts of different outcomes if you will.

Danna Redmond: 00:19:37 Right. Right. I definitely see the role of networking especially if you are on the job and you may be going to take on a new project or a new type of project that you haven't done before if you know other people in your industry or people know that you've done that they might reach out right to get a little bit of early coaching or give me some words of wisdom type advice and that could be a longer term mentorship or really just a point in time like hey let's chat about this as I kick off this project kind of idea.

Nina Johal: 00:20:07 Yeah that's so true and you're making me think of an example now that just popped into my head. And again all related to the executive search space. So I'm a member of a organization that is made up of people that have similar roles to myself and I think the networking opportunity there is alive and well and there's been many times when I've reached out to others in the industry to say I am embarking on you know trying to solve a challenge around how do you measure our awide for the work that my team does. And you know how have you approached this what do you know or just jointly brainstorm on things. So I think again this is not seeking a new job and it really is in the realm of career development and honing my craft in terms of what I do today and try to get better at that as I work with other people and learn how they're approaching similar challenges.

Danna Redmond: 00:20:59 Right. Right. So what tips do you have for people who don't think that they are networkers.

Nina Johal: 00:21:06 You know what I would say is if you don't think you're a natural networker it doesn't mean you can't be really good at it. It will just take practice and it will take a little bit of bravery and the other thing I would say is remind yourself that all humans are innately social creatures and most likely unfortunately you've had some experience in your life that might make you a bit more hesitant to put yourself out there so to speak. And you know as I said earlier using self-talk to sort of bolster up your self bolster up your self-confidence or seeking advice from a trusted advisor who knows you well enough to sort of get you in the right space. It's going to be really important. And then the other thing I would say is pay particular attention to pre-planning and be specific in what next. We're networking events you want to target first. So I think I alluded to this earlier go to the ones where you're going to feel most comfortable and sort of use that as your testing ground. Even before that practice I'm the most comfortable environment that sort of suits your lifestyle. Maybe it's the gym maybe it's the grocery store but it's really just taking that initial step and talking to people that you don't know when you're in line paying for your groceries or what have you. And I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how accommodating and how people how willing people are to talk to you. And that's what networking is all about.

Danna Redmond: 00:22:26 Right. And so you mentioned earlier and then your answer that preplanning and not planning what would you say what goes into like a networking plan what would you advise people put into that.

Nina Johal: 00:22:37 So what I would say is step 1 is the plan so about what events you want to attend and why. We talked a little bit about this and then also think about what your approach is going to be once you get to the event. I talked a little bit about the smaller group going for the trio of the three at APOD it's easier to break into that conversation. The other thing I would say is have a list of two to three topics that you're passionate about that you feel confident about that you want to speak about that you want to talk to someone about or think information about it and know what those are so you sort of have your full in your head and you're not frozen in the spot. And then I would say as I said earlier introduce yourself people introduce themselves to you it's automatic human behavior and then don't be afraid to ask people while you're at the event introduce you to others. People are very very willing to make those connections. And I would say in my experience I can't say it's 100 percent hit rate but you can kind of read the networking event that you're in and you want to be in a networking event where people are very open and people are very genuine. There could be events that you just don't feel sort of vibe and that's fine and good you move on and you know you don't go again or you go to a different one.

Danna Redmond: 00:23:54 So I think you have to sort of read the room and read the environment and make sure you're comfortable with that that makes a lot of sense about you know being sure that you are comfortable there so that way you're sort of presenting your best self. Because I imagine if you're not comfortable with the individuals not comfortable there you know you're just not putting yourself out. You know you just not putting your best self out there.

Nina Johal: 00:24:14 Write you're going to put so much pressure on yourself that you're probably going to be somewhat limited in terms of how you how you want to show. The other thing I would say is ask open ended questions about whatever the topic is that's being discussed and if it isn't something you're super familiar with. Just be curious. Use the names of the people you're talking with. So once they introduce themselves to you use surnames it's a very it's a strategy that becomes very very engaging. And I think the other thing is when you ask open ended questions and you're curious about the topic. People love to talk about something they're passionate about they love to talk about themselves and that gets to building an authentic and a genuine relationship with someone so I think that's sort of that's sort of the basic place to start. And then the other thing I would say is smile and look approachable. Nobody wants to approach someone that frowning or looks like they're stressed out. So I think that's the other reason that you've got to make sure that the environment you're in is something that you're comfortable in and then offer up ideas and offer to connect people to others do whatever feels natural to you. But look for an opportunity to help the person that you're speaking with versus trying to sort of flip it the other way because those opportunities will come to you. It's more about being a resource for others and determining how you can help them with whatever they're working on. And that will flip in you will sort of you'll yield the effects of that at some point as well. And then the last thing I'll say is post a follow up. So any commitment you make to your fellow networkers make sure you follow up on those things like sending a short email acknowledging that you met so-and-so and you know maybe you can add in a little bit of what you learn from them. Make it personal and let them know that they can reach out to you.

Danna Redmond: 00:26:09 I like that follow up piece right I mean it's possibly something people don't think about much from a networking event. There's like a real specific Oh that person has a job that I'm interested in or you know that person has something that I need. Then of course I mean I can follow up but maybe if it was that immediate piece that post-event follow up could be really useful as you're saying sort of and it could fruit or net something further down the line than than what would happen immediately in the room.

Nina Johal: 00:26:40 Yeah that's so true and it could be when somebody hands you a business card which doesn't happen as often as it used to now. But when they hand you a business card you get back to your desk you shoot them off a quick email. That way your top of mind for them are there and you know a folder in their email in case they want to reference back or it's a quick connection on LinkedIn. So you sort of start building your own library and you go back to that library when you may have a question or maybe you go back to the library because somebody said oh gosh I'm really interested in x y Zad and then you have an opportunity to say oh gosh I think I have something that might help that person. And again that's just it's an ongoing sort of reciprocal event if you will.

Danna Redmond: 00:27:27 I love that and I love how you keep coming back to it is about helping others write if you can help others and that comes around to you again and really keeping that in mind. So Nina I imagine that there is a difference between sort of building a network and you know you're first starting out versus sort of maintaining a network. Do you see a difference and you know are there any different steps or anything different you would advise in either of those situations.

Nina Johal: 00:27:54 Yeah. You know there's definitely a difference and there's also a similarity and I think in the similarity bucket it's both take dedication both take work and both take planning and when you're maintaining a network of follow up and follow through are very important. So being proactive and maintaining your network you could be selective. You know in terms of whom and how often and what that interaction might look like. But if you make a commitment that absolutely stick to it. In my own network I have people where we have a mutual commitment to kind of be there and we exchange information on a fairly regular basis. That could be an email article that I know a person would enjoy that I personally got a lot of value out of. But I'll just shoot it off to a couple people of my network that could be a job lead that I recently that I'd like to pass on. It can be very personal but I think the main point I would make is having a commitment follow up set aside a certain time stick to your commitment keeping your network alive is hard work. So have a plan have a timeline attached to each of the people in your network. And then again it could be as light as email and email Check-In or it could be a face to face meeting Yeah that's interesting.

Danna Redmond: 00:29:11 Think about that time commitment that it could take you could probably spend all your time networking right and meeting TV network but all the rest of you know many of us have full time jobs and things we need to do. How do you balance that.

Nina Johal: 00:29:25 Well what I would say is even though I started off by saying networking is a time commitment it can vary. So you will have a set of people in your network community which are very low maintenance. It is a quick e-mail. You know maybe it's every six months and it's just a quick little e-mail. It's more about the discipline and then having a commitment to say OK every six months. Here's the 10 people I've been issued an email to but I think there's another bucket of people that you interact with more often. And I think what I would say it's what I refer to as I read this great article that gosh I want to share with you know the four people in my network that I know have a passion around this or they're going to love this or it's going to help them because it helped me and then doing that. That's more a little impromptu but doing it almost immediately otherwise you're probably not going to get to it. So as I read something and I'm like gosh Stacey would love this you know shooting it off to Stacy immediately.

Nina Johal: 00:30:22 But I think the final and third bucket is where you spend. I'm going to call it call it more quality time. So there's probably like three or four people in my image and call it my deep network where we meet maybe every second months and it is a face to face meeting. It's dinner or it's a glass of wine and we're It's almost like a mentoring peer mentoring network where I'm talking about specific challenges and I have the other person talking about the specific challenges we have and we're actually contracting to say OK the next time we meet we're giving each other advice the next time we meet. Here's what I will commit to do to change the circumstances a man or to address the challenge I have. And so that's super beneficial. It's a it's a much more emotional networking connection but I think those are the types of connections the more you connect in that way the deeper the conversations are and the feedback is very very rich. And I would say in that category you're probably going to have just a small handful of people.

Danna Redmond: 00:31:38 Right. Those people that are you are sort of consistently engaging with and probably know a bit of your weight more of your history than some of the other. You can go to sort of and call on them or they can call on you at a somewhat quick pace right. I love that right. Yeah. So you know. Nina thank you so much for chatting with me about networking. Mean definitely to this conversation I can see that you know it really is networking just an ongoing process right that it takes some time to go deeper with folks right. And some some you just reach out every once in a while. But it's that consistently managing that is so important not just for you know new job seekers but for career development. We had a couple of examples. Yeah. Wonderful. Well let's transition our conversation Nina and I we have a couple of questions that we'd like to ask all of the guests on the career Keok helps us get to know you a little bit better. Sunita What was your first job.

Nina Johal: 00:32:41 Well I actually worked for my parents. And gosh you know I was probably like under-aged in terms of being legally allowed to work. But when you have a family business you chip in and you do whatever. So that was actually my my first job and it was a fun one it was pretty much full time after school on the weekends what have you what do you think you learned from that that you still use today. I think what I learned is that you you have to feel passionate about your profession or your craft. And if you're in that position you can very easily pull for your whole self into about work. And when I think about what I learn from that for myself it's to ensure that whatever work I'm doing I'm truly passionate about whatever it is. My you know my career my craft and my barometer is are sort of my own my own sense Chuck is if I can't get up in the morning. Ninety nine percent of the time and feel really excited to go to work that I'm probably doing the wrong thing. But I guess the flip side of that is luckily 99 percent of the time I can get up in the morning and feel really excited to come to work. So that's what I learned is you have to have passion for what you're doing. Otherwise you're probably not going to get your whole self to whatever that craft or whatever that profession is.

Danna Redmond: 00:34:06 Right. I mean it is the feeling that drive or that in your stomach or feelings gap this is fine I enjoy what I'm doing and does make a difference and as you said sort of putting your whole self out there and really giving it your all I think versus just sort of phoning it in. Exactly. Well have you read or listen to anything recently that you would recommend to others.

Nina Johal: 00:34:30 Definitely and I actually recommended this to a couple of people in my network. It was the TED talk that I think I listened to a couple of months ago. It might have been the January time frame and it was by an organizational psychologist Adam ground called Are You a giver or a taker. And he basically posed that there are three basic kinds of people in every workplace there's givers. There's takers and there's managers and say about matters when I what I thought about this is that those people are the networkers. And so we offer really simple strategies to promote a culture of generosity and keeping the self serving employees from taking more of their fair share of work and time and so I was fascinated by that one. It resonated with me. And you know I think when I read or I hear about things that resonate with me I automatically want to share it with certain people on my network.

Danna Redmond: 00:35:28 That's neat. That's an interesting concept and I'm sure you as a leader of a large organization you can think about that even just you know and not just in your profession. You know executive recruitment and talent acquisition but in within your own organization where you're leading not have how that filters through.

Nina Johal: 00:35:46 Absolutely. There's so many ways to apply it you could even apply it to your personal life. So just a you know a variety of different takeaways from that particular TED talk. Great. Well I'm going to look at him Grant. OK.

Danna Redmond: 00:35:58 I'm going to look that up as soon as we get this. We're out of the studio here. So Nina this is one of my favorite questions. What would your 90 year old self say to you if 90 year old Nina walked in the door today what would she say to you.

Nina Johal: 00:36:15 Gosh. Well I hope my nine year old self would say I can't believe you're 90 and you don't look a day over 80. Oh good day over 80. My mum just turned 92 for my my way. You know I want to look like my mom when I'm her age certainly does not look her age. You know and this is a bit of a cliche answer but it's one that I truly believe in and it's all about the legacy that I'm leaving behind. Not about what job I've had or what title I've held but it would be more about wow what an amazing child you raised. What a great human you've been in. I can't believe how many people you have helped in so many different ways. That's what I would want my 90 year old self to be saying to me.

Danna Redmond: 00:37:03 I love that and it really is sort of you know it's the legacy and you know we've talked about on The Career Cue we've had other guests talk about legacy and you know there's sort of a big legacy that you think about that is you know if you're the president or you're you know some you know big role there's this huge thing out there and there's also you know what we sort of talked about as like the little L legacy which is your family and your friends and the network you were able to create and just the impact you had on your circle and sort of the ripple effect of that. Exactly. Yeah. So I love that. I love that. Wonderful. Well Nina this has been so fun to have you and Tom on the career you today so thank you. If our listeners want to learn more about you or get in touch with you what is the best way for our listeners to do that.

Nina Johal: 00:37:54 I think Linked-In is probably the best and easiest and most efficient way. So I welcome anyone to connect with me on LinkedIn. You know you can do an easy search on Nina Johal and I'll pop up and you can go ahead and send me an e-mail but I'd love to chat further.

Danna Redmond: 00:38:10 Great. I love that. Well thank you so much Nina and I hope all of our listeners got there and start networking.

Nina Johal: 00:38:18 Excellent. Thank you so much. I've had a wonderful time chatting with you. Great. Thanks.